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Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao’s Story and Romance

kitty_momo
 blimarch:
With such a natural and harmonious option possible for the ending, I wonder what was on Tong Hua's mind to instead inflict us with a whirlwind of torturous torments. Well, Tong Hua being the omnipotent writer, she has created a trap sewn into a labyrinth to ensure that XL would die anyway. She set up the perfect circumstances to create the (best?) inescapable ending...

Yes, this, 100%. I think Tong Hua has a crush on the character of Xiang Liu and decided that he should be deified and transcend petty things such as material reality, and the only way to do that is by having him die tragically. It fits with the snowflake analogy Tong Hua used for Xiang Liu (someone posted it here a while ago): snow falls and then disappears without leaving a trace, just like Xiang Liu.


 blimarch:
was XL aware of the 15 years promise made between XY and TSJ?

I don't think anyone was aware of the 15 year promise except for XY and TSJ.


 blimarch:
I was wondering: in order for the Lover's Bug not to turn into the Heartbreak Bug and therefore kill XL and XY, did XL had to make sure XY never forgot him?

That's a very interesting question. I don't think XL intentionally tried to make sure XY doesn't forget him. I also think that even if XL had never appeared again in front of XY after that confession/rejection on the beach, she still would never have forgotten him. She was clearly thinking about him a lot already before beach scene. Staring at his memories in the mirror and making poison for him, even though she sadly thought she'd never see him again and that he wouldn't even recognize her is if she does see him. He's the kind of person that's hard to forget because he's very unique, and XY clearly had feeling for him to the point that even TSJ could already tell.

I'm not sure how deeply Tong Hua thought about all the details of the Lover's Bug and Heartbreak Bug tbh. I think there are are a lot of intentional blank spaces so that she doesn't have to think too deeply about everything, and the reader can just insert whatever makes the story make sense for them. As a result, if you examine it too critically, it might start falling apart.

I'm saying this because I was talking to my husband about the Hong Jiang roots vs. branches analogy before. He said the analogy doesn't really hold up to scrutiny and laughed at me for probably having thought about the whole thing more than the author did in the first place. Haha.

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kitty_momo
 Kokuto:
So, I wouldn't say they are wrong, but they may have out lived their purpose, now that CX has ascended. Chenrog is more like Wales in the 1500s or Scotland, after 1603 and the ascension of Scottish James to the English throne. They have been aborbed into a greater entity, things are relatively peaceful, AND they have their bloodlines on the throne.

Plus, there's this insistence of dying rather than surrendering. That seems questionable.

This is the point I've been hung up on. They have outlived their purpose, and now there is no place for them in the world. They want to die. With such a heavy investment over centuries, it's understandable. But in the process, they are willing to take innocent people down with them and create chaos.

I'll try to make a comparison for what I'm thinking. If they are the roots, then the largest part of the tree was cut off long ago, attached to a different tree and with its own roots, and now there is absolutely nothing left of the old tree except for the roots. There isn't a whole lot of water in the soil around them, and parts of the roots have long been rotting.

Roots aren't static. All things in life must conform to reality, which means a certain degree of adaptation. Branches grow towards the light, and roots grow towards the water. The roots now have nothing left to nourish, but they continue to grow anyway, possibly uprooting and hurting the things around them. Still, they insist on continuing to grow and its consequences, instead of agreeing to the people that are offering to move the old roots to the retirement home for no-longer-required roots.


 liddi:
Yes, it is almost ridiculous how I care so much for fictional characters. But we are not out of the woods yet based on what I have read, trying to guess whether it is or isn't authentic. I just wish S2 drops quickly and put us out of our misery one way or another.

Yes please, I need to be put out of my misery. Hahahah.


 AH :
The way I interpret it, her refusal to answer that last question when she readily answered the one immediately before, told him the answer.

I'm still wondering why XL wants the answer to that question. When he tells old man Lirong "the person in her heart isn't me", does he actually believe that? Does he want that to be true, or not true? What answer is he hoping to get when asking who XY most wants to spend her life with?

Depending on his reason for asking, I think it's quite unfair and patronizing to refuse to give XY closure.


 liddi:
Ep4 is the section when Xiang Liu sings Chi Chen's love song for Xiao Yao. This happened long before Xiao Yao realises her true parentage.

Does XY really not realize her true parentage? I think she suspects, has always known deep down, but (very in character) refuses to think about it. I feel like there should be some complex emotions from XY in this scene that should clue XL in that she knows but won't think or talk about it. He clearly came to test to see if she knows, and I feel like he should realize that she does. I'm curious how this will play out on screen.

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HeadInTheClouds

@kitty_momo 

I think it's worth keeping in mind while we engaged in discussing/speculating about these characters motives and reason is that people are pretty rubbish at making judgement and decision based on logic and facts. Research showed that emotion drives a lot of people decision making processes and they will actively discard facts in favour of emotional wants.  This is not mean to discourage discussion - its fun and that's why we're here.

For the resistance army, I'd imagined that their reasons are logical and understandable and admirable at first. But as time flows on and history is not on their side, the original reason doesn't matter any more. They're too emotionally invested. The sunk cost fallacy has taken root. It has probably became a part of their identity and they sees no other ways for them. It's really difficult to let go of something that is such an integral part of you. 

On the same topic of logic vs emotion in decision making is why, IMO, for all her proclamations of not picking a man that won't placed her first, if XL has confessed his feelings, girlfriend would have thrown caution to the wind and make some reckless decisions. Heck, he didn't confess and she still went against her rule and confessed to him and (implicitly) asked him to take her away. That's my interpretation and I'm sticking to it 😄. We do dumb ass shit when we're in love. XL is the exception, not the rule when it come to this. His logic over-rides his emotions - probably because he has 9 heads and only 1 heart. 

Your question about why did he asked her about who she wants to spend the rest of her life with. I'm thinking that maybe he first thought that he's not in her heart, but the crystal ball changed that (I think that the sequence of events) and the question is him wanting to confirm that his interpretation of the crystal ball is correct (i.e she does have him in her heart). Why he still.made the decision that he did after that is beyond me. Like I said, those 9 pesky heads got in the way of our ship.

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HeadInTheClouds

@bugei. Thanks for the welcome 🙏. 

I'm one of those that is OK with the ending in the novel. It what set it apart from countless other romance out there. It leaves you with the feeling of yearning (how apt) for what could have been. "If only" is one of the most lamentable expression there is. However, mẹ being OK with the ending is contingent on XY reciprocating XL's sentiment and XL knowing that. Otherwise, it's just too sad 😔.

All I want for the second season are those two things to be established. 

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blimarch
 kitty_momo:
I think there are are a lot of intentional blank spaces so that she doesn't have to think too deeply about everything, and the reader can just insert whatever makes the story make sense for them. As a result, if you examine it too critically, it might start falling apart.

I second that. Furthermore, I have the feeling that Tong Hua probably wrote a version of Lost You Forever from the point of view of Xiang Liu in which she could display his feelings like she did for XY in the original novel, but for her personal use as a writer. Judging by how the words are so carefully chosen when describing XL's reactions/words and how they can be interpreted in a multitude of ways, so that they create dramatic misunderstandings about his intentions. What a treat it would be if she decides one day to grant us an insight into XL's heart. I'm glad that the drama provides us this insight. But I'm so worried about S2 that I dare not hope for an accurate rendition of XL and XY real feelings for each other. On the contrary, because of all the transvestites it promises to be worse that the unfulfilled understantding we get from the novel itself.

 kitty_momo:
Depending on his reason for asking, I think it's quite unfair and patronizing to refuse to give XY closure.

I second that too, 100%! He didn't allow her to make decisions for herself by deniying her informations and he also denied her closure, two things he ensures he would get. That's unfair.


We're so lucky on this forum to have such interesting and open-minded exchange of views and to have such wonderful people translating contents for us <3


@liddi @nathsketch >> https://twitter.com/borsha_sadiya/status/1696774688201203843/photo/1

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kitty_momo

I agree, if XY knew XL's feelings, she might have thrown all caution to the wind. That's what I always assumed anyway. I think that Yang Zi said in an interview that if XL had confessed his feelings, the ending would have been different, so I think she agrees with this assessment?

But XY is also a very rational person, just like XL. I might prefer a more equal tragedy, where XY gets to know all the facts too. (Seriously, what right does he have to probe her mind and then make her forget all about it?) As it is, the tragedy is so unequal where XL is meant to shoulder the entire burden, making his character more selfless, pure and divine at the expense of XY's character. Except, does he even shoulder the entire burden? XY suffers a lot from him acting like he never cared about her and only ever used her for transactions. I don't think she will ever be able to forget him no matter what happens, and I'm not sure if his attempts of trying to force her to hate/forget him make things better or worse for her.

And indeed, there are so many what if's. Would XL have chosen differently if...

  • ... he knew how sad XY will be after his death? (I think yes, which might mean he underestimated her affection for him?)
  • ... XY had been open to being with him from the beginning instead of "being afraid to dream" (I think yes, which probably means he was trying to respect what he had irrevocably decided were her wishes?)
  • ... XY happily left with him after he crashed her wedding, accepted the fact that she hates being a princess and has nothing in common with the nobles/royals, and taken this perfect opportunity to fake her disappearance along with Fangfeng Bei and stayed in Qingshui Town to live as Wen Xiaoliu again (I really want to see this story tbh)

Of course all the what if's are the reason we keep thinking and talking forever. And in the end none of the what if's matter, because Xiang Liu needs to be written to death no matter what. But anyway...

I've been wondering for a long time if I consider XL's behavior to be noble idiocy or not, and I still can't make up my mind.


In the last chapter of the book, there's this part after XY learns about XL's death:

Xiao Yao murmured “Even though I always reminded myself that he was
Zhuan Xu’s enemy, but I…..I was not prepared for this! I really wish it
was all a lie…..he’s so sneaky, he must’ve found a way to stay alive!”

Jing said nothing because he knew Xiao Yao didn’t need his response.

“It’s because he’s so sneaky that he doesn’t want to stay alive! One
time he told me “Actually, to a General, the best ending is dying on the
 battlefield.” So he chose for himself the best ending!”
 
“But what bullshit best ending! He’s the stupidest idiot in this
world! He stayed loyal and true to Gong Gong and all his soldier
comrades but did he do himself right?”

“I’m the idiot actually! He never cared so why do I have to be so hurt. I don’t want to be feeling so much hurt………” [I feel like there is an implied undercurrent of "Did he do right by me?" here as well]


I think this entire dialogue was missing in the leaked script? I only recall that in the end, Grandpa King Xiyan said something like "the only person Xiang Liu owes in this life is himself" to Cang Xuan. It's odd that Grandpa is the one to say that, but it just makes me wish that someone would do right by Xiang Liu. 

His whole character becomes about all about selfless sacrifice, so can't someone else do right by him to make the whole thing come full circle? Xiang Liu is so overbearingly tragic, it's like a tragic one-man show. Like, all the tragedy is put on him. It's a little deafening. Can't we take some of his tragedy and have some other characters be more explicitly tragic? He's not even the protagonist, why does he get the majority of the tragedy?

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Elise
 liddi:
Suddenly a song rang out.

Please cut out my eyes, So my blood splashes on your robes, Like peach blossoms on the branches, As long as I am in your eyes.

I'm looking forward to TJC's great singing <3

 liddi:
As the song died away, the illusion cleared and what stood before him was the richly dressed Fangfeng Bei. His eyes dimmed.

Interesting. So they're going to make a comparison with XY's dad and XL/FFB.

 liddi:
LRC: You have served loyally for several hundred years. Whatever debt you owed would have been fully repaid. Why not put down this heavy burden.

LRC is like the audience surrogate. He's saying all the stuff we want to say to XL lol.

 liddi:
LM: Both of you are on opposing ends, fated to have a tragic end, so it's better not to start! Just let her go, don't continue to be entangled...


 liddi:
Fangfeng Bei brushed away the old man's hand coldly.

FFB: You don't have to worry. She once said that I am not the type of person who should be allowed to enter dreams.

I remember someone here (I think it was Kokuto) say XL was traumatized with what XY said in episode 19, saying to him that he's not the type that should enter a girl's dreams. I'm really thinking this is true as well. It's like ever since then, he's tried to keep a distance from XY, not getting too close, always remembering what she said.

 liddi:
FFB (seeming not to care): The person in her heart is not me.

I don't get this. What???? So all along, he didn't think he was in XY's heart and her heart was only set on Jing?  I thought the poison love bug was supposed to be able to let him feel her feelings. What do you guys think?

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Elise
 liddi:
Yes, we get the epilogue but within the last episode, not at the end. The version I read is not all that great either, with trainwreck potential. I fervently hope that the aired version would be a pleasant surprise.

A potential trainwreck? I'm going to start stressing and losing my hair when season 2 comes out lol. Heck, I'm already stressing out. I'm hoping we get a nice surprise too.

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liddi

@HeadInTheClouds

Welcome! Good to see another fan of the novel, drama and specifically, a particularly stubborn, self-sacrificing Nine-Headed demon. I can't promise we'll get out of this unscathed, but at least we can celebrate or mourn together?

You bring up an interesting point. Based solely on the novel, I believe both Xiang Liu and Xiao Yao are aware of each other's feelings, but refuse to act on it - him because he knows he cannot give her what she wants (lifetime companionship with someone to rely on); and her because she is afraid to admit her feelings for someone who is a clear enemy of her family, her fate already written by her bloodline. Yet for all her insecurities about trust, she would take the first steps to bare her feelings to him, only to be rebuffed. Even if she didn't, he should have realised how she truly feels about him by how the lover's bug remained unaffected for the 120+ years that it was planted in their bodies. Likewise, she should have also realised it had she allowed herself to consider the possibility, after knowing the true nature of the bug she planted in them both.  

Now I am not as certain if we are talking about the drama. In S1, I am still pretty confident seeing how faithful it is to the novel. However, I can't say for certainty assuming the leaks we saw are real, because I have no real idea what drama Xiao Yao thinks. Drama Xiang Liu also appears more unsure of Xiao Yao's feelings, compared to his novel counterpart. I can understand him probing her mind because he needed to ask for himself whether he was the one she most wanted to spend the rest of her life with - a source of comfort that he can carry with him as he takes that long, lonely journey push the woman he loves away into another man's arms while categorically, irrevocably cutting their ties. However, I question why he would doubt whether he was in her heart in the first place, even if she told him he was not suitable to enter her dreams. Knowing the nature of the bug as he did, seeing that neither of them suffered retaliation from the bugs, that should already have told him without a shadow of a doubt that he is in her heart, even if her mind would not admit it to herself. So this part makes no sense to me, unless it is properly explained. 

I have been a broken record about my hopes and fears for S2, so I won't repeat them again. Suffice to say that I need it as soon as possible for the well-being of my hair and sanity. 

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HeadInTheClouds

I think XY herself maybe confused and/or unaware of the depth of her feelings for XL. She's sense that's he's a potential threat and she could falls in love with him (that whole you're not suitable to appear in a young girl's dream I.e you're not suitable to appear in my dream). Why why else would she thinks this if there is no possibility of it happening?  So suppressing, denying and ignoring out of self preservation are possible. And maybe that's what XL get across their link when it comes to her feelings for him. She doesn't have to do the same with her feelings for Jing and XL can sense that to. 

This would potentially open up another intriguing condition for the Lover's Bugs - as long as the hosts love one another, they can also love a third person without the bugs turning on them. Or maybe Tong Hua was being very, very subtle with her subtext that XY's love for Jing is not quite romantic love or as strong as her love for XL so the bugs doesn'tsee it as a threat/violation! 🤔 (thank God I'm in this thread, otherwise  Jing's fan will eat me alive 😄)

At the end of the day, we're just speculating. Maybe Tong Hua herself didn't fully think through the Lover's Bugs mechanisms. 

I think we need like a word document detailing all the things that we know about the Lover's Bugs and how they work  according to the text then add in  our own deductions . 

Calling AH and her photographic memories of the book.

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nathsketch VIP
 blimarch:
We're so lucky on this forum to have such interesting and open-minded exchange of views and to have such wonderful people translating contents for us <3

Visiting our Xiang Liu threads is one of the best moments of my routine. So glad to have you all here!!

 blimarch:
@liddi @nathsketch >> https://twitter.com/borsha_sadiya/status/1696774688201203843/photo/1

This is me 24/7. 😭

 liddi:
I have been a broken record about my hopes and fears for S2, so I won't repeat them again. Suffice to say that I need it as soon as possible for the well-being of my hair and sanity.

LOL are you also losing hair with all this stress? I am. Hahahahaha

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nathsketch VIP
 HeadInTheClouds:
Or maybe Tong Hua was being very, very subtle with her subtext that XY's love for Jing is not quite romantic love or as strong as her love for XL so the bugs doesn'tsee it as a threat/violation! 🤔 (thank God I'm in this thread, otherwise Jing's fan will eat me alive 😄)

Oh, I love this. SO much.

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liddi
 Elise:
I don't get this. What???? So all along, he didn't think he was in XY's heart and her heart was only set on Jing?  I thought the poison love bug was supposed to be able to let him feel her feelings. What do you guys think?

Yes I think this is an inconsistency on the part of the plot. Xiang Liu knows the kind of bug they share, so he should know just from how peaceful the bug is, that deep down, she does love him. Hopefully this is properly cleared up when S2 airs. We will all need wigs by the end of S2 if all this stress continues!

 kitty_momo:
I'm still wondering why XL wants the answer to that question. When he tells old man Lirong "the person in her heart isn't me", does he actually believe that? Does he want that to be true, or not true? What answer is he hoping to get when asking who XY most wants to spend her life with?

Depending on his reason for asking, I think it's quite unfair and patronizing to refuse to give XY closure.

Personally, I think he asked both for himself in a moment of selfishness, as well as to confirm with whom she really wanted to spend the rest of her life with. By all intents and purposes, I think he expects it to be Ye Shiqi, since she readily expressed her willingness to marry him immediately before. However, if she named him, the answer would be his source of comfort as he removes himself from her life; doing all he can to ensure she hates him to the bitter end. 

As for not giving Xiao Yao closure, I think it really depends. My take is that he expected that after all the apparent cruelty he showed her, especially the last time she saw him, there would be no love left for him in her,  only hatred. As such, he can minimise if not remove any grief she might have had when she learns of his death. Even if she still grieved for him in spite of it all, he would have expected her to be able to move on far more easily than if they had continued to be close all the way to the end. What I think he did not count on, was her overwhelming grief, at last admitting out loud that she does care for him after all even as she calls herself a fool for doing so, - after all the denials and lies she had been telling herself.

Then again, all this theory is moot if S2 plays out exactly as it is in the leaked script, with Xiao Yao still able to happily get married and retreat to Qingshui town after Xiang Liu's death, with no devastated outburst about being a fool for caring for him. 

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nathsketch VIP
 Elise:
I don't get this. What???? So all along, he didn't think he was in XY's heart and her heart was only set on Jing? I thought the poison love bug was supposed to be able to let him feel her feelings. What do you guys think?

Yeah, I don't get that either. Wouldn't the bugs turn into something lethal if she had no feelings for him? Why do the Jingers keep denying this fact? This whole poisonous love bugs MacGuffin is the most important thing in my biased opinion.

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liddi
 Elise:
I'm looking forward to TJC's great singing <3

Me too, especially if he is supposed to play the zither and sing Chi Chen's love song to Xiao Yao too.

Zhang Wanyi did a cover of Cang Xuan's character song 有你无你 With You Without You, and music director Dong Dongdong mentioned on Weibo that he would use this version in S2. Can't wait to hear it! It is well performed, though I still prefer Mao Buyi's original version, which captures poignancy of the lyrics perfectly. 

@blimarch Thank you for the amusing meme which hits a little too close to home! Argh... I need therapy!

 nathsketch:
LOL are you also losing hair with all this stress? I am. Hahahahaha

Not sure about the hair, but sleep definitely! I'll be walking around like a panda before long!

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