I am hoping for some views of their relationship because this morning when I got out of a meeting at 3 am (the meeting's host is in another country where it's a civil time of day. *grumble*) I thought I might re-watch some scenes. And I didn't but just get to that episode 7 scene--you know the one--and I had to come here and look for peoples' takes on it.
What happened to Pok was related to Tong's action, but Tong's action wasn't inherently wrong even though Pok was hurt by the consequences. (unlike the test swapping)
I think Pok was only inclined to wound Tong so badly because of their already choppy relationship. It's possible Pok would have been less awful to someone he wasn't having other troubles with. I also think he was only able to wound Tong so deeply for the same reason. Because they have this weird melange of sexual tension, deep love and deeper hurt.
I want to hear what folks think about that incident and anything else you want to bring up about Pok and Tong. They really have grabbed me.
I think it's quite interesting!
We've discussed the idea of good intentions vs resulting effect, and how sometimes what that person is feeling as a result of the action(s) ends up being much more important than the other person's good intentions. In the case of the final exam, I would argue that Tong had great intentions, but it doesn't surpass how Pok felt in the end and what other damage was done; in my opinion, Pok had every right to be upset and frustrated. And we could even say that if anyone else had done it, Pok still would've been upset and felt betrayed. It's just worse with Tong because he loves him.
But with this incident...it's kind of hard to say. Tong reported something he should've. At the same time however...There are times when reporting something could easily go wrong, even in cases with bullying and abuse. It could result in that person getting even more abused and maybe the higher ups (the school faculty in this case) not really doing much about it; unfortunately, stuff like this happens.
There's also the fact that neither of them have healed from the breakup. Tong, who still loves and cares for Pok, went and reported it with what I'm assuming is no evidence. You could almost say he reported it too soon? And Pok, who's still very hurt by the truth, said what he said, much more likely out of the intense feelings he had in that moment. I doubt he meant what he said since we've seen him have moments where it seems like he misses Tong.
And I don't blame Pok for feeling how he does at all because to him, this is probably another case of taking away his agency.
I feel like it's tough to say who's right or wrong. I feel like they're both pretty valid in how they feel about the situation and it's understandable.
I'm just worried about what's going to happen to them next. Very sure there's going to be another beating...maybe Tong this time.
I feel like I understand Pok's standpoint. I empathize with him. But I think in this situation he did something very wrong. It wasn't until tonight that I was able to articulate exactly in what way I felt it was wrong outside of "hey, that was a dick move!".
In Tong's defense, we all have to literally "do the best we can" without knowing the outcome of our actions. Some situations are harder to predict that others, or we feel forced to act before we have as much information as we want. That doesn't mean we shouldn't act.
One could argue that Tong's timing was premature. He most certainly didn't have names to turn in. Yes. But Imagine you knew the person you loved most was being hurt, maybe every day. Would you wait while they were hurt even more, just to gather evidence? Or would you act the moment you could, in hopes of saving them from further violence. Even if the outcome was unsure? I think we'd all prioritize the safety of the person we loved. Even if it meant launching in there without enough evidence to establish a clean, predictable outcome.
If their places were reversed, it's true Pok wouldn't have reported the bullies. He'd have gone in, fists swinging and gotten himself expelled.
On the agency thing, though, I'm not sure. Because while the act of bullying was happening to Pok and one might argue that meant only he had the right to decide how to deal with it--that's only an argument if Pok and his bullies are the only ones who know about it.
Once someone else knows, they're rather obligated to report it. In most cultures there is a sort of good Samaritan clause to social responsibility. The Thai have quite the version of their own. It's even wired into their greetings. One of their primary forms of hello translates as "Are you well?". And if you accidentally casually answer "meh, I've had a rough day" then be prepared for exceptionally intrusive (if utterly delightful) and well-meaning involvement in finding out why your day was rough and what can be done about it. And wow, if you actually answer you aren't feeling well, it can get wild.
And some people have argued that what made reporting the bullies wrong was that Tong didn't do it because bullying is wrong in general but that it was bullying of Pok in specific. That's impossible to say for sure, since the context in which Tong became aware of the bullies was via their harassment of Pok. So we can't weigh his choice in that manner. But we can simply weigh the value of outcomes vs intent. On one hand, we could have a Tong who knows about the bullying but never reports it and stands by knowing people continue to hurt the person he loves. On the other hand, Tong reports it and while the team's events have been canceled, the person he loves is more safe and the coach is now facing the imperative of finding the bullies. We know the second option is more morally correct than the first.
I get why Pok feels disappointed, but his anger is way out of control. He was very, very wrong to be cruel and while I understand that their history colored his anger, that still doesn't excuse what he did with that anger. And unfortunately I think he's going to end up regretting that more than missing the competition.
That isn't to say I can't agree that Pok has a right to be upset, devastated even, over the loss of the ability to compete.
Coming a bit late to this conversation but I was thinking about this and wanted to add my take on that before episode 8 aired. Just a quick note, English isn't my first language and while my level isn't bad, I may have not understood correctly some things so please correct me if I'm wrong. And also I hope I make sense.
I mostly agree with you. Tong had the moral obligation to report the bullying, even if made with little information and despite the possible negative effects of it for Pok. Besides, to me, him having an interest in doing so (Pok's wellbeing) doesn't make it any less right.
However, while I agree that objectively Pok's willingness to hurt Tong was completely uncalled for, it makes sense to me. I saw some people say that that remark was Pok being hot headed and not thinking through his anger, but I think he went into that conversation pretty level-headed. He did not mean his words, but he definitely intended to hurt Tong. Their conversation happens the day after the coach's announcement, Pok had the time to think it over and that's the thing. He had the time to twist the knife in the wound on his own and let it fester.
I believe his hurt doesn't come so much from the loss of his ability to compete as from the loss of his means to deal with his hurt. After he learned the truth about the exam, the competition and practicing for it were a way to regain some sense of self worth. Not being allowed to participate in the competition sucks, but there will be other competitions for the team to partake in, even if that one was a yearly competition (one usually stays a few years in college). The club had to stop all activities, as I understand it that includes practice too. Pok can't blow off steam / works toward his achievement anymore, and he now has plenty of time to bask in his hurt and add to his resentment towards Tong.
Add to that the fact that that decision impacts the whole club and thus Pok's relationship with the other members. Pok is insecure and wants to be accepted by others in general (I'm referring to that moment in S1 when he comes back drunk to their room and says he has to drink or else the others won't accept him), I think that partly explains his response to the bullying. We don't know how his relationship with the other members is, but even if it's just neutral I understand he might not want to let his problem (the bullying) hinders the whole club. Now the others may hold him responsible for the whole thing, not a good thing in and of itself, but also not a good thing for Pok's insecurities.
This was pretty unstructured but I guess my take is Pok was wrong but he really is not well. Neither is Tong and I'm also worried for him, both for his emotional / mental state and for what may happen to him for reporting the bullies.
I agree with you! Your reasoning was really sound and your English was great. So have no worries.
I didn't really consider that Pok's response, hot as it was, was premeditated. But I think you're right. Which makes the wound he dealt all that much more terrible because he can't argue that it was a heat of the moment thing.
Now that episode 8 has dropped and the idiot coach is finally dealing with things, I feel back for Pok. But at the same time, he can't keep being cruel and pushing Tong away only to go "I'm sorry, I didn't mean it" later. That's pretty abusive.
Pok and Tong definitely have a lot to work through. And I'm worried things are going to be worse before they get better.
I have to wonder if Tong is going to work past the hurt before Pok manages to corner him to offer an apology. And I wonder what part, if any, Kalae and the other juniors will play in Pok and Tong repairing their relationship.
But man, Pok has got to get his head straight.
Love more, hurt more...
I think you are right about the reaction that Pok has is a bit extreme because it is Tong who made the report, not anybody else.
I think Tong did the right thing. Each time someone hurts Pok, I kept thinking that this could be when it gets too far and Pok may really hurt that he is out-out of the game for real.
Pok has to see it from Tong's perspective before being sooooo mean to Tong. Everyone of Tong's actions so far has been because he loves Tok. Tong could just look the other way if he doesn't care. I feel that Tong has been saving Pok's a** and Pok is always too fast to pull the gun on Tong.
Now that we know that Tong's decisions played out in Pok's best interest (And the idiot coach finally got his head out of his ass) I am really curious how this will play out.
Pok looked so resigned and so sad. But I loved Tong's moment of "Fuck no". It was so honest!
We knew Pok was wrong. And now that he knows, I wonder on what terms he's wanting to apologize. Does he really know why what he did was wrong? I am not so sure. Pok doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes. And I don't think the writers are letting him off that easy.
Also, I suspect those bullies still have a part to play in all of this.
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