AVAC: Antagonist/ Villain Appreciation Club

Made a few new badges

 Rien:

Made a new badge

WOW. @Rien, the badge is amazing. I will add it to the top right away. I am so happy and grateful for your contribution. WOW.

 Wish Upon A Star:

I have watched a few episodes of The Glory and honestly thought of dropping. Are there any redeeming qualities for the antagonists? If it is pure "doing evil for evil sake", it is not a show I will continue watching.  Even for the FL who was bullied and suffered a lot, both physically and mentally, her revenge on her group of school mates (the antagonists) who bullied her, really make her no different from them..

I can totally see where you are coming from and in the beginning, I also was a bit bothered if this would be the case for the entire series. However, I did not regret finishing it because of the message it holds within me. It´s not about the evil being punished, it´s about the question "What is fair? What is necessary?". I also think there are some very interesting highlights in the second part where things/ fate started to take their own turns without anyone actively intervening anymore. And in a series characters need very strong and distinguishable traits. Nevertheless, I see why you dropped it but I can guarantee you since I also don´t like antagonists who are "evil for evil's sake", that there was a remedy to my doubts.

Good evening to all lovely AVAC fellows. Long Time No See.

It feels like 2023 is almost over and we had not had a good chance to get to know each other yet. This is also an option to reintroduce Yourself to a forum that shares similar interests.

So, I have prepared a few, not so simple, questions for You:

If answering them is not an option for You, You can also share what made You join this forum and who Your favorite character is, or suggest other questions or ideas for this group.

Farewell Strangers From Hell,
We´ll see each other again.

LIN

 LiN:

If You could think back, who was the first antagonistic character that took Your interest more than any hero character and why? Was it because You could somehow relate to them?

Until now, was there any certain character You have in mind when observing other villains/ antagonists that you un/consciously compare them to? Or do You not pay much attention to similarities?

Would You also just enjoy an extremely good-looking, beautiful, and smart villain/antagonist whose background or character consistency is faulty?

Do You think female and non-binary villains/antagonists are underrepresented? 

Can we include characters from non-MDL countries/shows too? What a fun list of questions. Will definitely answer later on today.

1. If You could think back, who was the first antagonistic character that took Your interest more than any hero character and why? Was it because You could somehow relate to them?
   • One of the reasons I relate to villains is not because they’re bad people but  more so how they push boundaries of right and wrong. They challenge tradition and push me to  question my own notions of morality. It is also easier  to connect with a character who is flawed too. 

     The Joker

     The first one that took my interest was likely this one. There have been many great portrayals of my iconic childhood comic book baddie.I was always fascinated by his lack of boundaries and restraint. A complicated character not fueled by money or power. The terror he spreads is ideological and his motivations are philosophical.  He just wants to watch the world burn.

   • Other notable ones
     • Loki(MCU) ,Moriarty(Sherlock UK), Hannibal(TV Series),Klaus Michaelson (the Originals), Seo Moon Jo (Strangers From Hell), Tae Gon (Arthdal chronicles), Ok Eul Tae (Bulgasal: Immortal Souls), Berlin (Money Heist SK), Xian Fei (Story of Yanxi Palace) etc
2. Until now, was there any certain character You have in mind when observing other villains/ antagonists that you un/consciously compare them to? Or do You not pay much attention to similarities?
   • No. It depends on the character and story.  The actors also play a large part of it.There is not one villain i use as a blueprint or standard for all. If the character for example is  coded or is similar to  another character then the comparisons will be inevitable but i do not have a gold standard. 
3. Would You also just enjoy an extremely good-looking, beautiful, and smart villain/antagonist whose background or character consistency is faulty?
   • Maybe.The best villains are the complicated and complex ones. The flaws are likely what make them  either relatable or feel more real. It depends on the character though.
4. Do You think female and non-binary villains/antagonists are underrepresented?  
   • 100%Yes. They are not only underrepresented but often  lack complexity. Representation is not just about visibility. You get a lot of villains that are Queer coded and the question is why is their visibility only in a certain context? Female villains, don't often get enough depth and have limited  types. The villainy is often strictly tied to their identity of  womanhood or somehow justified. They are never just bad. I  just want variety, interesting origin stories , motivations and some moral ambiguity etc. Female and nonbinary antagonistic characters should be shown with  the full spectrum of traits, agency, and morality. I think the problem is that how they are received/perceived by audiences doesn't allow space for them to be that way. 

Thinking back, I have always found the morally questionable characters, usually the antagonists, the most interesting. I can´t think back to a time when I would ever hate them, because there was always my curiosity in the influences that have made them who they were. I also think that only looking at the present character was never truly in my interest, while I admit that it is where most of the analysis should focus. Why/Who/Which event made them who they were?

 LiN:

If You could think back, who was the first antagonistic character that took Your interest more than any hero character and why? Was it because You could somehow relate to them?

My first deepened interest in an antagonistic character must have been Hades [Hercules 1997] and Skar [Lion King 1994]. Both of them got a little background story in their role as Disney villains, and both of them craved power and respect. Seen from the perspective of the main character, Hades and Skar both seem shady, unredeemable, and evil, both of them have felt badly betrayed and wronged in their lives. Thus even my childhood antagonists were not uninteresting to me.  Other namable childhood antagonists would also be Tai Lung [Kung Fu Panda 2008]. For those who don´t know, Kung Fu Panda has been my comfort / favorite movie since I watched it for the first time in 2008, so anything related to this movie is always a LIN attractor. Tai Lung is also not evil for the sake of being evil, but he was truly wronged by Oogway and also Shifu, when he was denied the title of "Dragon Warrior" that he was drilled for his entire life, even sacrificing his entire childhood and life. To me, it was understandable that he was unredeemable driven by revenge and seeking to be the one who brings himself justice - all alone. He never knew anything else, why would common morals suddenly drive him when all he knew was the pain of being wronged?

 Coming to the world of Asian Dramas, however, I would definitely name - who would have thought - Seo Moon Jo, as well as almost every notable character except for the Lan Clan Members of The Untamed. Seo Moon Jo is a bit comparable to Hannibal, I think. There is (almost) no good in him and he likes to play his games and be in control. Just this predictable and merciless nature is really what made him very interesting to me. As a viewer, I was not searching for good in him, I was just observing how far and twisted he would go for his amusement. His most vulnerable moments are barely even acknowledged because our POV character was so manipulated and brainwashed by him. Who even is Seo Moon Jo?

The Untamed is a gift to every person out there who likes to question standards and norms and spend time judging for their own evaluation of what good and evil means. As @Ana has said: 

 AnaTechWr:

there is always a huge amount of hurt and tragedy beneath the surface for them

That is why instead of an action drama, The Untamed is more of a ´therapeutic´ and ´political´ drama to me. It has evoked a lot of questions in me, as well as caused me a big amount of pain and joy. Because the characters are faced with constant injustice that is caused by prejudices and obliviousness to the truth. Wei Wuxian, ever since I came across his tragedy, has been my most relatable, most favored, and most attached fictional character to whom I relate on a terrific level.

However, I have tried to answer only the first question, and it already got this far. I have so much to talk about all of the deeply misunderstood fictional characters out there - me included hehe...

Hello!