2 wives, 3 concubines, and 2 children! OH MY!

There have been so many posts about it being a harem that I though we could have a side chat about the topic. 

At the start of the story the General Xu is married with one main wife, two concubines and two children. Before he marries Lady Shi Yi he is forced to take on another concubine due to the manipulations of his first wife and when she dies she makes him promise to marry her sister.

I know this premise is bothering a lot of romantics hearts but I thought I would add some context to his situations.

1. Parents determine wives and concubines. The main wife in Lady Shi's  family says this out loud but it is very much the message of the times. I doubt his lordship had any say on who would enter his household. Before getting mad at him, I think we really need to be mad at the parents who treat their kids like they are cattle. Making matches to benefit themselves, or the family, but really not much consideration to the couple themselves.

2. An older man is going to have a past. General Xu is a man in his late 20's (the actor is 45). He's going to have previous relationships. What we should really focus on his how he acquired his women. 

First wife: Lady Yuanniang was clearly a political marriage that yielded some affection which eventually dwindled because the general neglected his wife and his wife became more calculating. Also she gets very sick and was only able to only provide one offspring. Now we know the lack of children is as much his problem as it is hers but often mother-in-laws encourage concubines is to produce a lot of offsprings.

1st Concubine: Madam Wen was awarded to the general, after her family provided a lot of financial support in a battle. The fact that a woman is trophy is demeaning enough, but we could argue the general was in fact the prize. What this really confirms is this too is a political marriage. A way for a merchant family (lacking in status) to become part of the aristocrats (established families). General Xu and Madam Wen share a son who is older than the official's wife's son. Because the General is considered a fair man his main wife is worried that her son's position will be diminished once she dies because her son is shy and less outstanding than Wen's son. Their children so this is a lot of pressure for both sons.

2nd Concubine: Madam Qin seems to be a more humble woman, who lost a child. I didn't read the book but from what I read from commenters she was a loyal servant who became a concubine by his mother. The general clearly had relations with her, but I think they are mismatched in terms of personality. I will say I think the General's lack of empathy for her lost child is insensitive. He is not a perfect man. The best he offers her is neglect. This could be an indication of how little he feels for her, or it could be his personality. It will be interesting to see if the FL has a miscarriage, how he acts. (I am not saying she will but how a husband reacts to wife after a miscarriage is an important aspect of his character)

3rd Concubine: Madam Qiao was being positioned to be the next main wife until the first wife ruined her plans. Although the general doesn't outright say so, it seems he really doesn't like Madam Qian. Mostly what he says is he does not love her. But his actions show that he has no affection for her. He hasn't bothered to consummate their relationship, and has an only courteous relationship with her. However she is his mother's niece, and it might be that he only ever saw her as a cousin and nothing more. She forced herself into his household but not into the position she wanted. As a main wife's daughter, she feels like she lowered herself in being a concubine, and wants to be a main wife. She also believes that the ML would have treated her better if she had been a main wife and not a concubine. 

Second wife: Lady Shiyiniang is forced into marriage and only agrees when she realises she needs to enter the Xu household in order to find out who murders her mother.  Her sister wanted a member of her family to be married to the General in order to protect her son. It was a tossup which sister it would be but it ended up being the independent smart Shi Yi. Unfortunately for the Luo's, Lady Shi Yi could care less about the family ambitions and even less for the Xu's. She has her goals and anything else is of little interest.

3. Some cultural context. 

Life expectancy in the Ming Dynasty was around 43. Women died often in childbirth, as well as from illnesses. Families that worried about lineage would try to produce as many heirs as possible to ensure the family line.

It was a patriarchal society and women had very few rights. You can see in the drama, even leaving the house without permission is a crime. 

The richer the man was the more wives and concubines he had.  For many of the reasons listed above but also because it was a status symbol rich and powerful men had big harems. Sometimes it was the man's family looking to make more alliances, or produce more children, or other families wanting a connection. 

A women's reputation was fragile. If she did anything to threaten it, it would not only effect herself but also her entire family. Reputations were also important to men, but they were allowed to do more. They didn't get punished as harshly for going out, having external relationships etc.

4. Idol dramas are fairy-tails, this is a historical drama.

It can be hard for a modern day viewer to watch this drama because of the harem but it's accurate to the period. The idol dramas are sweet and fun to watch. I love them too, but they are unrealistic. Especially when the male lead is a prince or duke. Realistically speaking he would have had a harem, but to please viewers they don't give him one. For context, as for as I know there has only been one emperor in China's history who only had one wife. Emperor Hongzhi.

What are your thoughts.

Dramas lately have been showing more PDA. Or they are action driven dramas involving war, or martial arts. This is a script based drama about home and state politics. I can see how some might find it slow if they are not used to watching such things. It's only been 12 episodes so far so I think it's too soon to weight in but some people need more in the beginning to hold their attention. 

I do think if you aren't used to historical dramas, or harem based dramas this can be jarring. And having some context into the state of the times helps. 

It wasn't only in China that men would have multiple wives and arrange marriages still exist today. What I am concern with is there is more outrage about the husband or wives and not enough anger towards the parents who are arranging the childrens' marriages. 

The idea that you parents have complete and total control over your marriage is more difficult for me to digest. Also the power of the main wife and the mother-in-law is a dynamic I couldn't withstand had I been transported to that era. 

Even the ML has to defer to his mom.

Thank you for posting this because the comment sections is just flooded with how many people find it unpleasant that our ML have an harem. Like you mentioned as much as I love idol historical drama and the love for one person I also like realistic historical drama. This drama is different from story of Minglan so I hope people would stop comparing the dramas. I like how they show how awkward it was for the FL and ML on their wedding night and how our FL is unsure what to do. Some viewers forget that our FL is young. When she married our ML she’s only 16. I thought it was realistic how our FL didn’t know how to take off our ML clothes. I find it interesting how our ML never loved his wives. In fact I wonder if his two kids came about because of his mom telling him that lineage is important. 

I think it's good for people to be uncomfortable with the idea of a harem or child brides. We should find it shocking if it was happening today. But in a historical setting, we can also see it as the driving factors of why we have the values we have today. Why feminism is so important. Why lawmakers needed to set legal ages for marriages. And why in some countries polytheistic marriages are banned but also why they still persist today. 

This fictional story set within the Ming Dynasty is giving us a window into the lives of privileged women of the era. 

Lady Shi Yi is supposedly 17 at the start of her marriage. She was engaged at 16 but they waited for the year of mourning. The groom himself felt she was too young for him. As Czakhareina says women and men were being married off to each other at very young age. Women as soon as they are at child bearing age.  Her parents and eldest sister decided her future for her. And despite her efforts she could not control her fate. 

Some people don't like harem stories because of all of the in-fighting. It's physiological warfare, and can be stressful and tiring to watch too, at least for me. It reminds me of corporate dramas. I get headaches watching those as well because it reminds me too much of work. But I also get so much satisfaction when the heroine is able to resolve the issues and the hero is able to help.

Do you notice no one seems upset about slavery in these dramas? Is it because they have become such good servants that people don't realise that many servants are indentured and can be sold off on the whim of their masters. There is a moment in the drama when 2 girls are gossiping about Qiao and are immediately sold for their talk.

 DeDe:

Thank you for posting this because the comment sections is just flooded with how many people find it unpleasant that our ML have an harem. Like you mentioned as much as I love idol historical drama and the love for one person I also like realistic historical drama. This drama is different from story of Minglan so I hope people would stop comparing the dramas. I like how they show how awkward it was for the FL and ML on their wedding night and how our FL is unsure what to do. Some viewers forget that our FL is young. When she married our ML she’s only 16. I thought it was realistic how our FL didn’t know how to take off our ML clothes. I find it interesting how our ML never loved his wives. In fact I wonder if his two kids came about because of his mom telling him that lineage is important. 

I wrote a very long comment about the differences of the two dramas. I guess people can't help making comparisons. The undressing scene was really funny. My 21st century attitude was why don't you just take off your own clothes. But they have been really good so far in using the ML for humor. I loved the new boots scene, and when he pouts because he didn't get a personal thank you for his fans.

I feel that the set up here where there are many women in a household representing different factions somewhat reminds me of the classic Chinese novel, A Dream of Red Mansions. I am also somewhat reading the original IP for this at the same time - and hahaha i think they did a great job cleaning it into a script that is engaging (the original novel had an even more expansive cast - I think that's what reminded me of Red the most). 

Shiyiniang's attitude towards marriage and female independence I guess is somewhat rooted in the fact that the original IP novel Female MC is in fact a modern woman transmigrated into that era. Of course, that is not within the drama-verse, but SYN is essentially the stand in for the viewer. Also, if you think this is bad, in the original IP novel, SYN wasn't even 15 when she married into the Xu family  (I skipped a HUGE chunk of the novel's first 100 chapters, but i think it is alluded that they didn't consummate the marriage. The character settings are also quite different, but i think they did a good job overall.

But yes. A man of XLY's standing would have concubines. And the fact he has so few surviving children is an anomaly because one of his main job is to be a stud and breed his wives, I'm afraid. Especially because he comes from a military family, the family's continued prestige lies in the family's ability to procreate fast enough replenish its ranks. :(

 jingling:

I agree with this! I think that short of just getting rid of all the concubines, the writers have actually made the situation very tolerable for us. The ML obviously doesn't love any of his concubines, had more of a "strained partnership" with his first wife, and married all them out of responsibility. 

Also just a note on the names: the first wife's name was Yuanniang  (first daughter) not just "Niang" and the FL's name is "Shiyiniang" (eleventh daughter) not just "Shi Yi." The third concubine is "Qiao" not "Qian." 

Corrections made :)

 Rouzmary:

Of course I love my dramas where there is only the FL for the ML and no cheating, but I do like my historical dramas as well and for them I am able to handle the whole harem thing, since it is part of our world's history and even still ongoing in some countries - don't like it, but can understand it and can stomach it while watching dramas.

What I'm  most curious about in this drama is whether he'll still bed the other concubines after he falls for the FL and consummates their relationship and whether his 2 sons will create trouble for the FL's sons should she have them later on...or rather, maybe just the  son of the other concubine since the younger son is FL's nephew and thus maybe wouldn't interfere with his aunt's/stepmother's sons who will be his own half-siblings/cousins should she rise him as her own and nobody else poisons his mind against her.

So yeah, I can watch the harem plots, but of course I'd prefer that once the ML falls for the FL, there's no more bed hopping.

In the drama, all of ML's children are very harmonious with each other. But, It seemed like they changed the older son's age. In the drama, he's much much older, while in the drama he seems to still be like a child. So, he may be more susceptible to Wen Concubine's influences.  In the novel, the nurse mother of Yuanniang, was somewhat poisoning Zhunge's mind. She was putting these words and thoughts into his mind that made him more conscious that FL wasn't his biological mother and that he was the heir and needed to keep it that way. It caused Zhunge to be in a conflict with himself since FL treated him nicely. FL eventually, found out that the nursemaid was creating a rift between her and Zhunge so she found a way to make nurse maid leave the household. Eventually, stuff happened and nurse maid died. But, I feel like the drama changed this too. I guess not everything can be kept from a 700+ chapter adapted in a 45ep drama.