Please Do Not Comment on This Thread (Spoilers)

My obsession with this story has led me to post a lot in the main comment thread and the XL / XY discussion thread, but it's easy for those comments to get lost so I'm reposting them all here for my reference, and maybe others might get something out of reading them too. 

This thread will have LOTS of spoilers from the novel, so read at your own risk. 

Please do not comment in this thread. If you want to talk about XL or YaoLiu please post in the drama's main comment thread or in the XL / XY discussion thread (here is the link: https://mydramalist.com/discussions/lost-you-forever/110123-xl-and-xy-story-and-romance-warning-spoilers). 

AH  VIP 4 days ago

Hide Spoiler

Novel spoilers ahead.

For me, the satisfaction of XY x TSJ's happy ending in the novel doesn't come from them having chemistry. It mostly comes from the fact that it was only possible because it is part of the ending that XL chose and orchestrated.

He succeeds in keeping her alive through everything, even two "deaths". Which I believe has been one of his main goals since at least the point where he decided to accept the lovers' insect. But he also saved TSJ's life specifically so that TSJ could be the life-long devoted companion she needed.

He kept himself at arm's length from XY and never let her understand his true feelings for her because they both knew it wouldn't be possible for them to have a happy ending and he couldn't be the constant, end-game companion she needed. But he could be the temporary companion that alleviated her sadness and loneliness before she could be with TSJ, and he succeeded in that role as FFB. In the novel, he spent more than two years as FFB teaching her archery and being her frequent companion.

Edit: In chapter 51, XY says FFB gave her more than 10 years of archery instruction. So the first two years she wasn't sure if FFB was XL and for the last 8 years she did know for sure that he was XL.

In the end, he couldn't have a happy ending with XY, but he got everything else he wanted: he died an honourable soldier's death on the battlefield fighting for the noble cause he devoted himself to, he kept XY alive and gave her a happy ending with TSJ, and he knew that despite all his efforts to keep his distance, XY cared enough about him that she couldn't bring herself to kill him even after he tried to kill ZX (again) and succeeded in killing FL, but no so much that his choices and ending would completely devastate her.

YaoLiu  3 days ago

It's supposed to be a reverse harem drama, but I didn't expect for XL to be abused all the way from beginning to the end, TH must be hating this character he has no love at all and only heartaches while other characters aren't nearly as sad. Luckily TJC is so wonderful, he has turned a sorrowful character like XL into one of the most brilliant 3rd male lead in cdrama, full of heartaches.

AH  VIP 3 days ago

One of my favourite take aways from the novel is that XL got to spend the better part of two years teaching XY archery and being her companion (constantly exploring castles, attending dance halls, gambling, shopping, eating out, etc.) as FFB before he revealed / confirmed his identity and things got complicated again. Although two years is very brief in their immortal lives, it's still a pretty significant amount of time where he got to be close with XY.

XY also constantly prepares and sends new poisons to XL during that time - a regular reminder to XL that he is in her thoughts. And XL finds out about the memories of him that XY saved in her mirror. Those and other events show XL that XY cares about him, even though they both know it wouldn't be possible for them to have a happy ending, and even though XL knows that XY is not aware of his true feelings.

XL also got to experience the unconditional love of a mother for four years when he fulfilled his promise to the real FFB, and he clearly felt strongly about his adoptive father and fellow soldiers.

Although XL's fate is quite tragic and he never gets to have the romance that Jing gets to have, there are definitely moments in his life where he got to experience love and care and goodness.

U-chan U-chan  3 days ago

#30 Can anyone clarify below?

Is XL giving his 37 yrs of life to XY? Thx.

AH  VIP 3 days ago

XL does not give 37 years of one of his lives to XY. The first time XY dies, XL spends 37 years reviving XY. He does so using a transfusion of his essential blood on every full moon (this is covered in chapter 22 of the novel) as well as one of his lives (which XY mentions in chapter 26 of the novel).

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 HeadInTheClouds:

You and I have diametrically opposite views on this matter.

We do have different takes on this topic. Although (forever the contrarian) to be diametrically opposed I think I'd have to take the view that TSJ and XY's decision was 100% morally right and not selfish at all. Hopefully it's clear that that's not my position. ^^

Even though my view is still not as black-and-white as yours, you've raised many good points and given me a lot of food for thought, which I've enjoyed. But to avoid going in circles I think this might be a good point to agree to not completely agree?

l

 plor20:

5 days ago
 AH :
Considering that XY and Jing end up in a similar setup as to how they met at the beginning of the story is itself tragic, albeit subtly
I feel like I'm missing something here. Can you elaborate?
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. One of the things that is important to me when analyzing character development is how authors deal with character relationship dynamics.

At the beginning, you meet XY and Jing as savior/patient—XY nursing him back to life. Then their relationship slowly shifts to a savior/servant dynamic. XY and Jing share a home with mismatched people, to which XY and Jing considered lost to their families.

In the end, XY and Jing return to a similar dynamic. Jing is extremely ill and weak; XY has to care for and nurse him. They disappear into the wilderness with their mismatched family, becoming lost to their families once again.

Their environmental circumstances come full circle. The difference is that, by the closure of the circle, it was their choice to leave their families. Yet, the issue at hand is that both XY and Jing don't experience significant character development. They don't resolve their deep internal issues. They begin and continue to maintain their relationship based on fear—one of losing the other while the other is afraid of abandonment. Their relationship doesn't move past codependency.

TH ends the story almost similarly to how it began with their relationship dynamics. I guess to some, they may interpret this as if XY and Jing  are “destined” to be together. But for me, it really just goes to prove TH’s deliberate portrayal of their lack of growth.

That makes sense. Thanks for elaborating!

 HeadInTheClouds:

2 days ago
 AH :
THIS!!!

Few words, big actions. Darcy. Dignity. Deep feelings internally vs. a restrained exterior.

All of that. 100%
Something that we agree wholeheartedly on. I need some rec for shows/books with Darcy or XL-like characters. Besides Darcy, my other Austen's favourite is Captain Wenthworth. His letter to Anne at the end. The line, "For you alone, I think and plan" *sigh*. My teenage literature crush was Blythe Gilbert from Anne of Green Gable. I haven't re-read those novels for a long time. I wonder if I will still feel the same way as I did back then.

I LOVED Anne and Gilbert! And the Megan Fellows adaptation was one of the few situations where I loved both the books and the adaptation. 

 HeadInTheClouds:

 AH :
But I find major plot point differences actually help with the mental separation, so all the changes in S2, as much as I don't like most of them, sort of help serve as a reminder that it's just not the same story so I shouldn't worry too much about details that don't feel "true" to the novel version of the story.
The issue for me is that if they change it so much that it changes the essence of the story and the characters, I get really annoyed. Lol. I'm OK if you want to make changes so that it can be adapted, but what's the point if the characters no longer resemble themselves?

Lol, we're back to different views. Bigger changes are more tolerable because then it's just a different guy. Like Peter Parker and Miles Morales are both spiderman, but totally different versions. So in circumstances where Miles doesn't act like Peter and only has the more general characteristics of spiderman, it's fine. 

Although, that said, I will admit that when Ella Enchanted was finally adapted into a movie I was a bit devastated when they made it a musical comedy. Not that the movie itself is bad. I had just really been hoping to see a movie that was much closer in tone to the novel.

l

 HeadInTheClouds:

Cang Xuan would have tried to get Xiao Yao and himself out of there and dragged Xiao Yao's body to every doctor he could find to try and find a solution. Even if it's out of delusion, I'll take that never-say-died attitude (within a reasonable limit) over Jing's sitting there waiting to die any day.

I can't help but think how disturbing it would be if CX did drag XY's actual, 100% dead corpse around like that. ^^"

 HeadInTheClouds:

And that's one of my issues with this entire thing. Jing got lucky. Jing inadvertently helped save Xiao Yao. If Cang Xuan's people hadn't come, his action would have meant squat (just a plot device really). I just find it really hard to give him credit when he gave in to his helplessness and got lucky.

I'm struggling to see the difference between TSJ on the one hand and CX and his people on the other here.

TSJ transferred spiritual power to XY continuously even though she appeared to be dead and all hope seemed to be lost. It was lucky that he did so, because it helped keep her alive long enough for CX's people to arrive.

CX's people transferred spiritual power to XY continuously even though she appeared to be dead and all hope seemed to be lost. It was lucky that they did so, because it helped keep her alive long enough for XL to arrive. 

Seems pretty same-same to me. 

 HeadInTheClouds:

 AH :
I feel rather lucky. I can't think of anyone in my life who fits this description. Maybe that's why his ineptitude doesn't bother me quite as much?
Let's hope that you never have to AH. The trick with these kind of people is to have very clear boundary with them. Don't take on their problems as your own; let them solve their problems. Beware of your sympathy for them; that's how they suck you in.

I feel like maybe it's just that I have a very low tolerance for people who are draining to be around? I'm quick to cut or minimize contact. I only want to spend my social battery on people who are actually pleasant to be around. 

l

 Kokuto:

I mean, from the beginning, Jing lied about almost everything about himself and what he would do, and yet he's honest?

In most of the cases where TSJ said he would do something and then ended up not doing it, the novel makes it clear that he intended to and thought he would be able to do that thing at the time that he said he would do it... so I wouldn't necessarily point to those as evidence of dishonesty.

TSJ was also more open and honest about his feelings for WXL/XY than CX and XL. Maybe that's what they're referring to? 

Or maybe they are thinking of all the times where TSJ hit a barrier and told XY honestly about it? Not something he did all the time (he failed to tell XY about the pregnancy before she found out another way), but something he did do relatively consistently.

 Kokuto:

For example, the claim that Jing gave up everything for XY.  Well, that is just objectively wrong.  He SAID he'd give up things, but he never actually committed the action of giving up anything.  Almost everything he allegedly gave up was actually taken from him. Even though I agree that Jing abandoned his nephew / son, it was another passive decision that came about because of the actions of others.   I mean, if someone steals your motorcycle, did you actually give it up cause your girl friend asked?  No.  You didn't give it up.  You held onto it, until it was taken away from you. 

That's a good point. He didn't cut ties with his grandmother or TSH. His grandmother died and FFYY killed TSH. And TSH and CX took away the life that TSJ had as of chapter 42, including his wealth, status and power as clan leader. When he returned in chapter 49 (thanks to XL), he could have reclaimed those things, but chose not to. The only part of his previous life that he reclaimed was being with XY. He passively accepted the loss of everything else. 

 Elektraa:

The adjective honest was used to describe how he directly confessed to XY.  He was also the first one to do so in a romantic way. When he became TJ again and had chances to describe his feelings to XY, he did. Unlike Cangxuan or XL (though both had their own reasons). 

I thought that might be it! 

IMO, all three of them had good reasons to hide their feelings. TSJ was just the only to ignore them, and (IMO) to be encouraged, to a certain extent, to do so by WXL/XY. 

TSJ was engaged and not able to easily extract himself from the Tushan clan in order to be with WXL.

CX prioritized the throne and chose to marry many wives to further his political interests, even after he came to know that XY wouldn't consider being with a man if she wasn't his one and only woman. 

XL was already committed to Gong Gong and the Sheng Nong remnant army and couldn't promise forever or to always put WXL/XY first. 

 HeadInTheClouds:

@AH.

On the other hand, there are a lot of factors that lead me to sympathize with TSZ and XY's decision. I don't view it in such black and white terms.

If there is an area that calls for black and white, right and wrong view, then it's the area of child abandonment and neglect. You and I have diametrically opposite views on this matter.  When you decide to take on the role of a parent, be it through biologically fathering/mothering a child or adopting, you have signed yourself up for a lifetime of loving, caring, protecting and guiding this young person into adulthood. Are there circumstances where a person can't do that, yes - but there is nothing in Jing and XY's circumstances at the end of the story that could reasonably justify their abandonment of a young child? Nothing but pure irresponsibility and selfishness.

Whether it's possible to sympathize with TSJ and XY's decision or not, given the circumstances. Whether a black-and-white view of their choice is best or not. The degree of harm that their choice caused TSZ. I think there are several things that we disagree on here that, after going back and forth a few times, we probably won't end up agreeing on. But, as always, that's okay. You are entitled to have a different view.

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 HeadInTheClouds:

A stable situation of 7 years doesn't guarantee that it will remain stable. In a family like the Tushan clan, there are always factions, politics and power struggles at play. Jing, more than anyone should know how difficult it is to be the head of such a family - to deal with multiple elders imposing their wills onto you. Jing was a grown man of what 600-700 years? who was marked at birth to be the heir with hundreds of years worth of training and he struggled mightily to assert himself under his grandmother's and clan's rules, and yet, he's going to subject a child of barely 100 to this pressure cooker? Jing had left this child in a lion's den - if a power struggle breaks out, he will be used as a pawn in this power game. How is any of this justifiable? Don't tell me that Jing doesn't know this, we keep on being told of his vaunted intelligence.

At XY's request, CX was using his power as Emperor to back TSZ and to maintain the clan's stability. TSZ was not handling clan affairs while he was underage. The clan elders were acting jointly in the place of the clan leader to handle the clan's affairs together. Whether TSJ returned or not, TSZ would still be the designated next clan leader.  Frankly I don't think TSJ would have been any more effective than CX at exerting influence over the clan elders and shielding TSZ from any plotting that they might get up to.

When it came to his engagement with FFYY, his desire to marry XY, and selection of the next clan leader, TSJ did struggle to assert himself under his grandmother's rule. But she's dead. As far as what's shown in the novel, TSJ barely had any issues with the Tushan clan elders after his grandmother was gone.

TSZ also doesn't have an older half-brother or fiancee/wife that want him dead. And, in addition to having CX's, Hu Mao, Hu Zhen and Jing Ye's protection, he also had the protection of the Tushan clan guards. XL himself noted how skilled they are.

Feng Long, as much as TSJ, would know what it would be like to be the current and future clan leader of one of the Four Great Clans. In chapter 44, he told XY the same thing that CX had already told her - the Tushan clan elders had agreed to let TSZ become clan leader and would support and assist him until he came of age. He also said that the elders were handling the clan affairs for TSZ so he didn't have to deal with such things during his childhood. Feng Long seemed to think that, with CX's support (which he was providing per XY's request), that status quo would be maintained until TSZ was old enough to take over. Like Hu Zhen and Jing Ye in chapter 49, he didn't seem to think that there was any cause for concern with TSZ's circumstances.  

-----

Chapter 44:

Feng Long chuckled, Xiao Yao really had a way of thinking that was always different from other people. He could never understand her thought process. Perhaps the only one who understood her was Jing, but……Feng Long’s smile turned down. “The Tu Shan elders have agreed to let Tu Shan Zhen become clan leader, and will assist and support him until he comes of age. The elders handle the Tu Shan clan affairs together, and with His Majesty’s support, the Tu Shan clan can manage until Zhen grows up.”

-

-

-

To establish some common ground, I think we agree that it is usually wrong to abandon or to neglect a child? Acknowledging that sometimes it is not possible for a person who should be playing the role of a parent/guardian in a child's life to do so for the child's entire childhood. 

I think where we differ is in our views on the degree of wrong-ness, depending on the circumstances, and whether or not there is room to understand or forgive such a decision, despite its wrong-ness. 

If I am understanding you correctly, in your view, any form of abandoning or neglecting a child to any degree and in any circumstances is wrong, full stop, no further analysis required, and therefore it is always incomprehensible and unforgivable? The only exception being one where a person is rendered incapable of playing that role?

Whereas my view is that context matters and there can be circumstances where a decision fitting that description is only wrong to a degree that leaves room for understanding and forgiveness. 

-----

IMO, whether it's circumstances where an angry, physically stronger person causes a physically weaker person significant physical harm at a time when the two of them are developing feelings for one another (e.g., XL causing WXL harm in chapter 4), a situation where a surrogate parent who was forced out of that role chooses not to return to it (e.g., TSJ in chapter 49), or any other circumstance, I don't believe there is ever a situation where a black-and-white approach, with no regard for context, is the best approach.

-----

I am not an expert on this topic, but I have some anecdotal insight into situations of serious child abandonment and neglect. My mother was a social worker, and her first job as a social worker involved having to take children who were not safe in their home environments away from their parents. Not a fun job. That background may inform some of my views.

In my experience, discussions about child abandonment or neglect typically involve truly difficult situations where the child's basic needs are not being met. They are not getting adequate nourishment. Their clothes, hair or personal hygiene are not being looked after. They are not being supervised properly such that their physical safety is at risk. Or the parents themselves pose a threat to their safety or overall wellbeing. 

While it is not precisely wrong to say that TSZ was abandoned or neglected by TSJ, those words carry all sorts of common connotations that do not apply to TSZ's situation. In terms of food, shelter, clothing, or any other material want or need, he was the opposite of neglected and would have wanted for nothing. In terms of physical safety, again his needs would have been met and then some. In terms of emotional needs, TSZ had at least three people in his life who had known him for his whole life, cared about him deeply, and were looking out for his best interests. Hu Zhen and Jing Ye might not have been able to play exactly the same role that TSJ and FFYY played earlier in his life, or exactly the same role that TSJ and XY could have played if they chose to re-enter TSZ's life, but they were clearly good people who had played, and were willing to continue playing, a guardian-like role in his life. And as Hu Zhen told TSJ, TSZ was doing well. Very well. 

So while I will re-emphasize that I do think it is lamentable that TSZ did not have his uncle / surrogate father in his life and his life probably would have been better by some degree if TSJ had chosen to return to that role, I will also re-emphasize that I don't think TSJ left him in a truly terrible situation. 

Angiee Le  3 days ago

The summary is so confusing above. So who does FL loves and who did she end up with?

AH  VIP 3 days ago

Major spoilers obviously.

XY loves CX / ZX, but as a brother only. She does not end up with him.

XY falls in love with and ultimately marries TSJ / YSQ. She ends up with him.

XY's relationship with XL is the most complicated of the three... XL is initially violent and cruel to her, but they bond over shared trauma. XL falls for XY surprisingly quickly, which is demonstrated when he successfully accepts the transfer of XY's lovers' bug into his heart. So XL definitely loves XY from early on, but he always knew his ending would be death on the battlefield, not a happy ending with a lover. That becomes even clearer after XY's true identity is revealed. So XL chooses to play a different role in XY's life. He helps and protects her (and still occasionally uses her blood to heal his injuries), but he never lets her become aware of his true feelings and doesn't let her know the full extent of the sacrifices he makes for her. In turn, XY definitely cares about XL, but doesn't allow herself to fall in love with him. When she comes close to falling for him, XL intentionally pushes her away. They do not end up together.

Minny Me.11  3 days ago

Okay i just finished watching the episodes this week and let me say just this

"TuShan Jing is useless."

YaoJing can hate all you want but the fact that he didn't even TRY to save her and just out right committed suicide is just bizarre to me. At least find a freaking way to save her before commiting suicide the f?!

Thank you for CX for thinking saving her and avenging her.

I'm a solid XL/FFB shipper and i like jing too but after what happened i dont like jing now. I'm so disappointed in Jing.

AH  VIP 3 days ago

Some TSJ fans will be furious to read your comment and not realize you are directly quoting XL (when he gets annoyed in episode 15 after A Nian has XY's hands beaten). Although he doesn't say that line in the novel.

But to be fair, as the other comments noted, TSJ, ZX and ZX's attendants played an important role in making sure that XY was in a state where XL could still save her when he arrived.

Minny Me.11  2 days ago

Yes i am quoting XL, i forgot to put XL at the end of the sentence. i'm no tsj hater but i really didn't like him on episode 29 😔.

I do acknowledge that he did give first aid and cx attendants helped BUT they are practically deity and demons and stuff. He could have asked for help, like exhaust all ways to save her.

I just read comments above ppl are so funny 🤣

madongsok  3 days ago

guys a simple question, when XL die at the end, why XY still alive? how abt lovers bug? they connected right? or XL remove it first?

AH  VIP 3 days ago

It is impossible to remove the bugs, and trying could kill both hosts. XL doesn't lie to XY when he says he also doesn't know how to remove the bugs.

But he does know how to kill the bugs, which will sever the connection between XY and XL without killing XY. He uses one of his nine lives and stabs himself in the heart in order to do so, and is heavily weakened in the process.

mimi0108  2 days ago

Does anyone have any idea how long has passed since XY became the Princess of Haoling again? How long did she spend in Xiyan with her cousin?
I don't know if it was said in the drama and I missed this sentence or if it was never said.
I would like to know how many years have passed compared to the promise of 15 years.

AH  VIP 2 days ago

In the novel they said that TSJ did not play the zither for 20 years before XY asked him to play for her. The novel also says he spends half a year "teaching" her the zither. So the time between TSJ's disappearance and XY's assassination is at least 20.5 years. TSJ disappeared for three years and stayed with XY for 6 years before his identity was revealed, and XY made the promise sometime after that. So minus 9 years. So when XY is assassinated it has been something close to 11.5 years since she made the 15 year promise.

For additional context, the novel says that FFB taught XY archery for more than ten years and XY and FFB buying the new bow together happened after FFB had been teaching her archery for four years already.

After the archery teaching, zither teaching, and assassination, XY goes into the clam shell for 37 years (and TSJ remains in a coma), so the 15 year promise has definitely expired by the time she returns and TSJ wakes up.

When TSJ becomes clan leader after XY's resurrection and XY meets FFB again, 40 years had passed since FFB and XY visited the gambling den and made a bet about which of them could give a demon slave death-match fighter hope (the bet that FFB won). So they made that bet a little less than 3 years before XY's assassination.

Kokuto  2 days ago

Awesome! Thank you. Do you know when XL takes FFB's persona in relation? I mean, did he already have that persona when he first met XY?

AH  VIP 2 days ago

@Kokuto Yes, he became FFB before XY was even born about 480 years before XY meets FFB. It's covered in chapter 18.

Ltran904  2 days ago

The 15 years mark will pass during the time she was unconcious in the sea shell with XL.

AznDramaLover  2 days ago

Oh ok I guess I'm a bit lost. But I thought that buy the time TSJ found out the maid that betrayed him that is 15 years promised has expired. Episode 22 at mark 30:59. She said she had waited on Mount Jade for 50 years. I guess I didn't make the connection she was talking about the past...

Ltran904  2 days ago

@AznDramaLover

She waited at Jade Mt when she was a kid. Since her grandfather sent her there til the day she snuck off and ranaway, that was the 70 years she was talking about.

In ep 22 when she said she waited for 70yrs and had enough. She meant she doesnt like to wait and she doesnt want to wait for anyone again. When she waited for her mom and she didnt come she felt abandon. She knew her mom died before she went to Jade Mt but because her mom promised she'll return to her, she didnt believe her mom died in the battle when it was announced.

AH  VIP 2 days ago

@AznDramaLover The waiting on Jade Mountain happened when XY was a child after she was separated from ZX but before she wandered in the mountains, was captured by the 8-tailed fox, and later became WXL.